Fall 2008 Online Certificate Students:
View all sessions below. Then log all your comments, questions, discussion question answers, criticisms, or thoughts below.
NOTE: This is not the place for general discussion and questions. Go to the foyer for general discussion and refer to the FAQ on the right for question. Time spent in the comments section will apply toward your one hour of community time per week. To download audio sessions, visit the course homepage on the TTP site. The next session will be posted each Wed.
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Why is truth devalued in our culture today? What is Postmodernism? We live in a different world than we did just 20 years ago. People think differently today about the reality and nature of truth. “Your truth is your truth, my truth is my truth-they are both right” is a common belief that we encounter in our postmodern culture. Why are people thinking in such a manner? By the end of this session, the student should have a better understanding of the history of man’s search for truth, learning that the postmodern view of truth (that truth is relative) comes as a response and reaction to an overly optimistic view of man that came out of the enlightenment. We will begin to answer the question, “How should the Christian respond to a Postmodernism culture?”
What is Epistemology? [9:15m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download What are the Epistemological Key Terms? [13:03m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download What is Postmodernism? Part 1 [11:03m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download What is Postmodernism? Part 2: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download
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September 11th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Here are my answers for this week’s discussion questions:
1. Discuss the contact you have had with the postmodern mindset.
My contact with the postmodern mindset includes a number of environments, especially online in dealing with very relativistic thinking. This comes through in my other online degree program. There even the perspectivism is shown in the emphasis most online schools give to teams or groups. In those and most other forums I’ve come across online, subjectivism, relativism, and especially mindless abandon with demand for tolerance of everything is prevalent.
2. Some argue that those who say they believe that all truth is relative don’t actually live this way. Explain why it is virtually impossible to live out a relativistic worldview.
Well I think as pointed out in the lecture with the examples of self-defeating truths, the extreme is not feasible. Whether it’s recognized or admitted to, some absolute truths, boundaries, etc. are necessary in everyone’s life. For a society to function remotely well, there has to be some absolute definition of what is a crime, what cannot be tolerated. Typically a person’s sense of comfort demands some absolute boundary, the violation of which cannot be tolerated for that person to remain comfortable with the situation.
3. Discuss the validity of this statement: “People are only relativistic when it comes to the issues of morals and metaphysics (God, spiritual things, etc.). They are not relativistic when it comes to the mundane.”
This has some validity. Even when people claim relativism, it usually doesn’t extend to their physical needs. In other words few would argue the absolute need to breathe, eat, etc. To carry that further, their tolerance would not extend to having their air or food taken away. Many are not relativistic to cleanliness and hygeine as their nose or eyes rebel against unpleasant odors or sights in themselves or others.
4. Do you still see modernism’s overly optimistic worldview in our society today? Give examples.
Yes, there are still those preaching that mankind will overcome all problems on its own. Some still say this from the evolutionary point of view, one pointed out as a modern charateristic in the lecture. We can see the two sides struggling on the issue of global warming with one side (modern) proclaiming mankind can overcome and the other (postmodern) saying we’re past the point of no return.
Add-on from when I first wrote this answer for the self study program:
I find it interesting that now in this election year, we hear both sides talking in a postmodern way about how the other party has or will ruin things beyond hope yet talk modernly about how their own side will overcome those same things, lol. I guess the two sides are just framing their descriptions in whatever age is convenient to persuade.
5. Empathize with people’s despair caused by the failed claims of modernism.
I have no real empathy for it per se, except for the one example of failed promises of the space program. According to the stories we got back then, we were all going to be traveling around at least the near parts of the solar system by now on a regular basis. And the accompanying technology was going to solve a lot of scarcity issues. As a sci-fi fan, I can empathize with that disappointment, lol.
6. Which way of thinking do you identify with most: Modernism or Postmodernism? How?
As I am of the former generation - a Boomer/Buster borderliner - I would say I can identify better with modernism. But this involves much evolutionary influence which I am strongly against. So as the lecture pointed out, it was and is something to be fought against as well. Sadly so many within the church find it the easy way to just compromise with each of these in turn. This laziness and as Sproul put it anti-intellectual spirit truly diminshes the church and its ministry.
7. Why do you think that postmoderns are described as people who are in despair? How have you observed this?
I think it’s because they have no true basis for hope due to not believing there is a truth worth anchoring to. Besides hopeless, this leaves them essentially directionless, beyond the mundane day-to-day things to do. Without a truth there can be no very meaningful purpose, nothing very much worth doing or aiming for. So I don’t think it’s merely a matter of defeatism on today’s particular challenges, but also lack of optimism for today’s possibilities.
8. In what ways would having a subjective or relative worldview cause you despair?
I would despair of lack of truth to depend on. Taking that further, I would despair of lack of deep purpose. If there were no ultimate absolute aims worth shooting for, I would become truly (ar ar) disinterested and disillusioned. I would give in to a sense of devolvement and probably become actually somewhat devolved from believing in this.
9. How was your thinking most challenged by the lesson? Explain.
I was challenged most by seeing that a lot of the church’s reaction tends towards overreaction to each new age - modernism, postmodernism. I was also challenged to see the worth in tradition as I also had trained myself to see only the evil in it. I can see now how it like many ideals could be a good thing; it was just also like other ideals abused by humans. It was challenging to hear that reading the Bible was the source of so many heresies.
September 14th, 2008 at 11:51 pm
1. I am a product of the postmodern mindset because I’m a Gen X (born in 1981) and raised in a school and culture where all cultures and all people were taught as being equally valid and good. But somewhere deep down it did bother me.
2. It is impossible to live out a relativistic worldview because it leaves no framework for making decisions. How to know the difference between right and wrong?? In order to make any decisions this person would have to impose their view (probably based on experience) and violate their own idea that “it’s all good, man”
3. It is intollerant to believe that theology can be relative but not things like driving a car… if it’s ok to kill people, then that means the dude in the car behind me can kill me for cutting him off on the freeway. This doesn’t last.
4. You see modernism in the presidential elections today. Both candidates say that our best days are ahead because we’re going to have universal healthcare and no dependance on oil, but on solar and nuclear power instead. Yah right! According to the Bible, life is going to get worse until Jesus comes back. Sounds great. I’d love to believe it, but I don’t.
5. I’m cynical. My sister’s cynical. We don’t trust people, we don’t trust government, pastors, church, neighbors, science, leaders, academics, etc… It sucks to be postmodern! It was so depressing that I ended up turning to faith in Christ to have any peace. Now by knowing that this world is imperfect now, and will be when Jesus returns, I feel like a weight is lifted off my shoulders. I don’t have to be perfect! It’s not just me who thinks that life is messed up! There’s hope that in the future it will get better! But the bad news is that it is going to get darker before it gets lighter.
6. Postmodernism. Science isn’t perfect. Medicine is limited. I had lots of medical problems and the doctors were really not able to do much for me. In fact, it just got worse. I knew that it was partly psychological, part spiritual, part dietary, part chemical, part allergies, etc… but it seems like everyone was just trying to treat each symptom seperately. I’m not stupid enough to believe that only one doctor has absolute knowledge of the entire body.
7. I’ve been there. I was desperate. I had no hope. No future. No love. No companionship. Nothing! I was very desperate. But I was offered power over self-destructive passions, meaning/purpose, eternal life, and the ability to become God’s son. Bingo!
8. Having a subjective or relative worldview is a desperate situation to be in because when there is no way to know what is wrong, there is no way to know what’s right–for you–for me–for our kids, etc.
9. I learned WHY my generation is postmodern– religion was imperfect and unreliable. Science was imperfect and unreliable. What is left?? Just ourselves, and living for self is a wretched purpose for living!
September 16th, 2008 at 12:37 am
1. Discuss the contact you have had with the postmodern mindset.
–Over the years I have encountered family members, coworkers, and friends who I’ve found to be persuaded with a postmodern mind set, but for this example I will refer to a an older sister as my example. Becoming a Christian, some twenty-five years ago my sister then as a university student became involved in the Unitarian Church. As we grew in our faiths our worldviews soon became obvious and often would clash. Today we are at different places resulting from the paths we journeyed. We love each other and have a kindred respect, but I’m often puzzled at her selective ways of thinking. She can be very rational and does appropriate research in many areas as needed but when conversations go towards certain areas she becomes defensive and irrational (my perspective). My goal is to keep lines of communication open, to find common ground, and rest on a quote from a Dennis Prager “Clarity before persuasion.”
2. Some argue that those who say they believe that all truth is relative don’t actually live this way. Explain why it is virtually impossible to live out a relativistic worldview.
–Yes, I’ve found the same results. For instance when dialoguing with someone who claims a relativistic view of reality; they will then turn around and make rational, objective claims about other things. They follow directions stop at red lights. They are even outspoken critics of many things.
3. Discuss the validity of this statement: “People are only relativistic when it comes to the issues of morals and metaphysics (God, spiritual things, etc.). They are not relativistic when it comes to the mundane,”
–Francis Schaeffer called this the upstairs leap meaning: we live in the downstairs of a mechanical universe of cause and effect in a material universe. However, he and others point out that it is impossible to live this out.
4. Do you still see modernism’s overly optimistic worldview in our society today? Give examples.
–I think modernism is still influenced in today’s culture. Many people look to science thinking that someday we will have all of the answers to life’s problems. I think they have to believe this because they have given up, for one reason or another, on the possibility of there being a loving God who is really there and has communicated to us.
5. Empathize with people’s despair caused by the failed claims of modernism.
–I have a sister who received her Masters degree in Psychology and it seems after having seen the failures of humanistic psychology she is now using a variety of Faith systems as a means of helping people to fulfill their aspirations. This I understand would be the pragmatic approach.
6. Which way of thinking do you identify with the most: Modernism or Postmodernism? How?
–I would say that Modernism influences me and although it has it problems and limitations the scientific approach has certain advantages in helping us understand the natural world as we see with all of the new inventions and medical cures. When it fails hopefully it will admit its mistakes, correct them and give us the best explanation for how something should work. I also know that science will not be able to tell us anything important about: love, beauty, morals, etc.
7. Why do you think that postmodern are described as people who are in despair? How have you observed this?
–Well I think postmodern are existentialist and as I understand it they find meaning, in what they will, by a leap of faith. So often there are many inconsistencies in their way of thinking that if they were to consider the consequences of their worldviews it would have to leave them in despair.
8. In what ways would having a subjective or relative worldview cause you despair?
–If I’m to put my faith in something important like marriage, family, jobs, politics, or a religion, I don’t want just a wishy washy hope in these institutions. I want something that has substance and credibility. Otherwise, I might also find myself despairing.
9. How was your thinking most challenged by the lesson? Explain.
–I think the explanation of postmodernism was very helpful. I’ve read and heard on this topic, but I don’t think that I ever really had the historical picture. So this lecture was very helpful. I’m hoping that I will be able to share this material. Often I hear terms like Relativism and Postmodernism used in sermons and other contexts, I wonder if it isn’t going over many peoples heads for lack of understanding.
September 19th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Responses to Session 4 questions:
1) My mom’s “side” of the family, which includes one of my sisters, plus a whole passle of other relatives, are staunchly postmoderns. We have had any number of conversations about whether or not there is absolute trtuh, whether or not it is knowable, and the like. In ministry, many, many people I have come into contact with have a postmodern worldview. One of the most striking differences I have seen is at funerals. The postmoderns are hopeless, despondent, lethargic, even fighting with deep depression because they have no hope in anything beyond their current existence. Not believing that there is a God, that he is knowable, that He is loving and gracious, and that He paid for our redemption leaves them with nothing - absolutely nothing to hope or trust in.
2) It is impossible to truly live with a relativistic worldview because it does not and cannot work. Do they ignore the lines on the road when they drive? Do they obey speed limits? Do they appologize when they “wrong” somebody? Do they get their feelings hurt when someone says something pointed about them? The list is endless, really.
3) I have yet to speak with, hear speak, or read the writings of anyone who claims to be a relativist who does not have very strong opinions about things asthetic - especially their worldview in contrast to mine. I had a conversation with one young fellow who had this worldview. He was a sociology major. I finally asked him, “Why is sociology of such keen interest to you?” His reply? “Because there is so much wrong with the world!”
4) Absolutely. There seems to be a prevalent attitude that, even though all seems lost and we are on the verge of destroying the planet and ourselves, all we have to do is “work together, put our differences aside, and we can pull out of this mess.” Nice rhetoric, but it is completely empty. Also, it stands in direct contradiction to what the Word of God says is coming down the pike…
5) To put your faith and hope in what is in front of you instead of where you come from - what your roots are, who made you, who made all of “this” - and to have that faith and hope consistently and constantly disappointed because it does not meet and satisfy the depth of real human need leaves one feeling lost and without anchor. I deal with hurting, lonely people a great deal, and their desire to reject everything to do with who and what has brought the deep wounding into their lives results in even more hurt, hoplelessness, and despair. I went through that for a very long time myself, so I can empathize with that mindset. Not all that “was” has to be rejected in order to enjoy what “is”, and what passes as “science” cannot answer the greater questions of, “Why am I here? What purpise does my life have? What happens to me when I die?” and a myriad of other things that we cannot help but wonder about.
6) My “trigger response” is: modern. But, thinking on it, I think I am in between. I do hold to the hope in a “spiritual realm”, but I don’t take anything at face value, either. I am grateful for scienctific and technological adnvances and comforts, but my faith is not in them.
7) This brings me back to that anchorlessness of not having anything sure, anything absolute, to believe in and hold on to. If all there is is all there is, what hope is there in that?
9) Hard to say, really. I thinmk the greatest challenge through this whole curriculum is the concept of “irenic” theology. My strength has always been in polemic, with a solid secondary in appologetic. Irenic theology takes a certain amount of humility and patience that have never been my hallmarks. My wife is delighted to see the subtle changes already!
September 20th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
Mitch,
In your answer to number 5,
” It was so depressing that I ended up turning to faith in Christ to have any peace. ”
There may be a new way to evangelize - just depress people towards Christianity, lol. But seriously, your point about religion being unreliable may actually help to point out to people the importance of developing a faith, not just a religion.
September 20th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
Richard,
I think you have a good point in your answer to number 9 where you mention that words like postmodernism may not be fully understood by many listeners. The first time I heard it explained I was thinking to myself I’ll bet someone hearing the word for the first time would wonder if there’s a ‘postmodern’, then what was ‘modern’ and how’d they miss it, lol. Another fine reason to encourage better development of mind among believers!
September 20th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
Warren,
I enjoyed all your answers but your answer to number 3 especially cracked me up. It’s funny how a person can be oblivious to their own glaring inconsistency (although we might all be guilty of that at different times), and then add in the self-assuredness that the ‘cult of the new’ must be better than whatever is from the past… I wonder if I seemed so much into what was new when I was new… probably, lol..
September 21st, 2008 at 1:03 pm
#1. This is the world I grew up in. How can you escape the glaring reality that people all around you have the postmodern mindset. It is sad but true. The session reminds me of how things seemed to be right and wrong in our house growing up, but somehow when you are in the world, the lines get so blurred. I always have to come back to the truth of what God says about everything to get some sense of reality and a biblical worldview.
#2. You can have a group of people who have great hate for another race or group. If the group acts upon their hate and kills someone (or many), they will still have to face a judge and jury for their crime. Their truth may have been that all races/groups of people are not equal, but just because that is their truth (in their own minds) does not make it truth.
#3. With regard to God or spiritual things, many would say, it’s o.k. for you, but it’s not right for me. You can have your religion, but God is not for me. As far as the mundane, it may be right for you to go to the grocery store, but food is not for me. We all need food and we all need God, whether people want to realize it or not.
#4. I would not use the word “overly”, but definitely more optimistic than today. Since we have such a mix of two generations and views, it is still seen daily. My in-laws have a hope in a good future for their grandkids and they always seem to be optimistic in their view of their doctors and modern science.
#5. Intelligence does not always help you get a better job. Why be optimistic, there is so much hate and killing in the world. It never seems that the world will be at peace or that things will get better. U.N. great idea but is it completing its mission? Is there any hope for the future with all the instability in the world?
#6. Definitely Postmodernism. In many ways it is from the culture. People do not trust in anything but themselves and how they can feel good for today. “If it feels good to you, it must be right for you”. Personally, I am a very optimistic person, but can see pessimism everywhere (in the media, when you talk to people in general). People are in such despair and that can seem depressing even for me.
#7. Because we are all in despair without Christ! As a culture, in what we value; as a country, in regard to what morals we uphold; as a world, is there any good out there. If I didn’t believe in Christ, I wouldn’t have much hope in anything. Thank God in heaven for giving us a hope for the future and making it known through His word.
#8. If you didn’t know anything was really true, then you wouldn’t have a purpose.
#9. Not as much challenging, but eye-opening. It opened my eyes to why people around me think and act the way they do. I knew that people had these feelings, but just didn’t assimilate the information in this way before.
September 21st, 2008 at 9:03 pm
1. Discuss the contact you have had with the postmodern mindset.
Whenever I meet someone with the view that everyone is ok, and they are ok, and God would never have a heart to make someone burn in Hell I have a hard time with. I try to say that if they were a parent and your child does something that will damage them physically you would do all they you could do to prevent them from hurting themselves. Now if the child does end up hurting themselves, there is nothing you can do to stop the consequences. That is the same with God. He has warned us not to do certain things, and if we do those certain things, there are consequences to our actions.
He has given us the way out of doing the things we know He has told us not to do, but we choose to do it anyways. How can we not accept the consequences of our actions when He has been our great Father who has warned us not to do something, and gave us the reasons to not do the things He has told us not to do? We will burn because He has said that if we continue in our sins, that we will burn.
That is no different than a physical parent here on earth that has warned their child not to touch the hot stove and then proceeds to put barriers up to prevent the child from burning their hands. Yet, the child still finds a way to touch the hot stove and burns their hand. Now, the child has to reap the consequences of touching the stove even though the parent has told them not to do something and they did it anyways.
That is the relevance to God being our Father in heaven and the Father here on earth we have.
2. Some argue that those who say they believe that all truth is relative don’t actually live this way. Explain why it is virtually impossible to live out a relativistic worldview.
We have been in a society of individualism. If truth is relative according to a group of individuals that determine what is true and what is not, than an individual will have to be totally submissive to the group’s interpretation of what truth is.
3. Discuss the validity of this statement: “People are only relativistic when it comes to the issues of morals and metaphysics (God, spiritual things, etc.). They are not relativistic when it comes to the mundane”
The validity as some would like to believe what relativity is when it applies to morals and metaphysics are not relative to the thing which does not influence others to knowing who God is, and what God does. But I disagree that anything would be relative in just some aspect of our life, vs. other aspects of our life. We are to live as if Christ is in everything in our life. Live as if Christ is to be shown in ALL aspects of our life.
4. Do you still see modernism’s overly optimistic worldview in our society today? Give examples.
Modernism’s optimistic view is that when one thing is said over and over regardless if it is true or not, that if you say it is true over and over eventually it will become true by frequency and not validity. Even if you don’t see it, you may be convinced by media, by rumors, etc., regardless if you see it yourself.
5. Empathize with people’s despair caused by the failed claims of modernism.
I have not been able to do this as of yet. I do feel that they are lost, and need prayer, but I have not been able to empathize.
6. Which way of thinking do you identify with most: Modernism or Postmodernism? How?
I feel that I am a mixture of each. I have a tendency to be skeptical unless I see it for myself. Kind of like a “doubting Thomas”. I am postmodernism as I have no other role model, no real mentor of what is right and what isn’t. So I end up rethinking a lot of things I thought I knew.
7. Why do you think that post moderns are described as people who are in despair? How have you observed this?
I feel post moderns are in despair because they do not understand the true message and what they are supposed to be following. They are so used to accepting what others tell them what the Word says, instead of researching it for themselves.
I have observed this through the popularity of the emerging church and the growth of the emerging church. We need to be on guard at all times!
8. In what ways would having a subjective or relative worldview cause you despair?
If I take my eyes off of the prize, or off of God I become worldly, not spiritually. When I loose my perspective of what really counts, I am in distraughtness.
9. How was your thinking most challenged by the lesson? Explain.
In learning the terms to be able to discuss a topic intellectually and analytically is a blessing, and a challenge. It is nice to be able to place a title on a particular method, or technique, or an attitude.
September 22nd, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Wendy,
Re: your answer to number 4
Do you (or anyone reading this) notice that whether or not someone tends to the more positive or more negative now a days seems to depend on what is more convenient for them? If they have a complaint to make, then pessimism is the approach to open with. But if they have an agenda to pitch or presidential campaign to sell, then it’s optimism (at least about a future with them in charge) all the way.
September 22nd, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Tony,
Re: part of your answer to number 1
“He has given us the way out of doing the things we know He has told us not to do, but we choose to do it anyways. How can we not accept the consequences of our actions when He has been our great Father who has warned us not to do something, and gave us the reasons to not do the things He has told us not to do?…”
I think so many times critics of God’s characteristic of justice conveniently forget these facts that humans have had every chance not to end up on the wrong side of God, and when they do are really choosing willfully to do so. I’m reminded of the description of being ’stiff-necked’ found repeatedly in the Bible, because I can find myself leaning that way and having to remind myself to remember God’s warnings and teachings. But when I do, they are easy enough to find.