Fall 2008 Online Certificate Students:
View all sessions below. Then log all your comments, questions, discussion question answers, criticisms, or thoughts below.
NOTE: This is not the place for general discussion and questions. Go to the foyer for general discussion and refer to the FAQ on the right for question. Time spent in the comments section will apply toward your one hour of community time per week. To download audio sessions, visit the course homepage on the TTP site. The next session will be posted each Wed.
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What are the essential beliefs that make a Christian a Christian? What are the core beliefs that someone must believe to be saved? Are there truths that are relative? If so, how do we know which ones? In this session the student will struggle with these difficult questions. The goal here is not that everyone comes to complete agreement, but that we begin to dialogue about such issues, understanding that failure to do so has produced legalism where people are judging others for not agreeing with them on each and every detail on non-essential issues. The student should also begin to recognize that there are different levels of certainty about all beliefs.
What truths are relative and what truths are objective? [14:46m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download What truths are relative? [14:05m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download What truths are objective? [31:43m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download What truths are essential for orthodoxy? [6:49m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download How certain are you of your beliefs? [9:36m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download
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September 26th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Here are my answers to the week 6 discussion questions:
1. Where would you place “getting intoxicated” in the quadrant chart? What is the chief principle that it violates? Are you consistently applying this principle in other parts of your own life? Explain.
I would place this in non-essential truth. It potentially violates a number of principles - drunkeness, loss of control, and responsibility especially if endangering others - drunk driving, etc. I believe I apply this consistently. I don’t do anything that would cede my self control or otherwise leave me unable to do what is my responsibilty. Where I may be at fault is not being regular enough in proactive things like exercise and healthy eating (although I still do some) in order to give myself the best chances of being able to continue keeping my responsibilities.
2. Many Postmoderns call the Church hypocritical because of inconsistency in what the Church condemns and how Christians live. Explain how someone who does not eat healthy, but who condemns a person for smoking, might be thought of a hypocrite. What can we do to be more consistent?
Such a person may be thought of as a hypocrite because they themselves are not taking care of their own health. Like smoking, though more indirectly, unhealthy eating may also affect others negatively - high medical costs (or food costs, ar ar ar) for the family, unattractiveness, etc. Smoking may only seem like it has more negative effects because of smoke blown in others breathing air. It certainly seems more filthy on the surface than the more latent long term effects of unhealthy eating. One way we can be more consistent is to be mor econsistent with the ’spirit of the law’ and not just the ‘letter of the law’.
3. Further discuss which doctrines you believe are essential for salvation. Place them in the center of the Circle of Importance.
A personal God - one who wants all saved
Special Creation - with purpose, not aimless trial and error
Jesus Christ Risen and living - promise of further abundant life!
4. Further discuss which doctrines you believe are essential for orthodoxy, other than those you placed in the “essential for salvation” category.
Atonement, Propitiation, etc. - sin, answer for it, etc.
Salvation by Faith - cannot be earned
Confession must be made - should demonstrate faith by this and works
Witness - by life,, by works, by word of mouth - all important!
Gather together - believers should somehow have fellowship
Great Commission - purpose of the Church until end of age
and probably many more…
5. Discuss the Chart of Certainty and the answers that you gave to each question.
Most of my answers were decisive due to my having pretty well grounded faith in essentials, and a tendency towards literal interpretation of the Bible concerning non-essentials. I could be moved possibly on the non-essentials. I could easily find later something I took literally was meant symbolically. But the essentials are based on my strong belief in a personal God so the essentials are tightly interconnected in my thinking.
6. Did your group find essential unity even though you disagree upon minor issues? How does this help you to understand the essential unity of the Body of Christ?
Well, “whereever two or more are gathered together”, they will disagree, lol. This helps understand the essential unity of the Body of Christ by showing how disagreement can exist on non-essentials as long as there is general unity on the essentials. It may be that more disunity comes as a result of disagreement on what the essentials are exactly.
7. How was your thinking most challenged by the lesson? Explain.
My thinking was challenged in a number of positive ways, but the most challenging was probably in thinking about how certainty comes in different types and realizing how much lack of absolute certainty there can actually be. I’ve considered such things before but not at great length. It makes one stop and realize just what basis their belief has. I don’t think it really weakens that basis any - just brings a more realistic view of it.
September 29th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Chartastic!
I think the charts in this session were especially good and potentially helpful in a number of ways.
The chart of quadrants seemed like it might be a good approach to present to those that think of everything in relativistic terms. I think so because I think anybody could probably come up with things they would put on the objective side if they’re being honest. It may not be the same as our beliefs, but they may realize they do have some objective principles themselves - do no harm to others, never being intolerant (lol), etc.
Concentric circle charts never grabbed me, but the one here seemed like it could be helpful as a ‘living one’ as it was mentioned that one may find less and less things in that inner circle.
I liked the Chart of Certainty the best though. We’ve probably all been asked before whether we believe this or that particular thing, and our answer seemed wishy washy because we didn’t strongly believe one way or the other on the issue. It seems others generally expect a strong either/or answer when often at least myself, I may just tend slightly one way or the other without being absolutely certain. A chart like this could present where we stand on things much more accurately.
Anybody else find these charts especially worthwhile?
September 29th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
A better unity possible through these understandings?
The idea of narrowing down essential beliefs suggests that with finding that there’s less actually necessary to agree on, it should be possible to find better unity across denominations. But of course then it could be said that even if this were agreed on in principle, people might still stayed physically separated in their denominations just due to choices of how they want to worship, how they want their congregation governed, etc. But it’s interesting to ponder what a more widespread understanding of that phrase from this session - “In essentials unity, in nonessentials liberty, in all things charity” (Rupertus Meldenius) - could lead to.
October 5th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
1 a. & b. I put “getting intoxicated” in the Non-Essential Objectivity quadrant since it violates the chief principle our body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit.
1c. I believe so, as I try to treat it as such as much as possible in all areas of life.
2. Both smoking and not eating properly are bad for your body. While smoking can cause cancer and other health problems, not eating healthy can also cause heart disease and other problems. Eating unhealthy is a little more socially acceptable than smoking in most circles. It is easy to see why someone who smokes could easily be offended by someone who overeats who tells them not to smoke. We need to live out what we believe and not push our “opinions” on others, nor make them feel so uncomfortable because they may think we are judging them for a particular behavior. Everyone has something they struggle with (seen or unseen).
3. Christ is God
Virgin Birth
Christ Died once for all
Christ rose from the grave
Only through Christ’s blood comes the forgiveness of sins
We must confess our sins and depend only on Him for forgiveness (Faith/Grace)
Christ will return
4. The original text was inspired by God
We must tell others about Christ
5.
1. There is a God. 10
2. That Christ rose from the grave? 10
3. That God loves you? 10
4. That Christ is going to come and Rapture the Church before the Great Tribulation? 3
5. Christ is coming back to reign on the earth for a thousand years? 8
6. That Christ is coming back. 10
7. That God wants you to trust that He will protect you from all physical harm? (I don’t believe this at all. God can use people who have gone through great trauma to bring others to Christ. So, I answered with a –10).
8. That God wants you to trust that He will protect you from all emotional harm. (Same as above). –10 Can I mention Job here.
9. That God wants you to trust in Him in every circumstance? 10
10. That the Bible does not have any historical errors? (original text 10)
11. That Adam and Eve were real people? 10
12. That there was really a snake in the garden? 10
13. That God created the earth in seven literal days? 10
14. That God created the earth? 10 (Through the person of Christ)
15. That Christ paid for the sins of all mankind? 10
16. That Christ died for you? 10
17. That the Apocrypha (15 books in the Roman Catholic Bible) should not be included in Scripture? 10 (since they were written later)
18. That the book of 3 John should be included in Scripture? 10
19. That the book of Genesis should be included in Scripture? 10
20. That the gift of tongues ceased in the first century? 1
6. Most find essential unity. Still others would rather have their agendas (whatever that may be) taken care of, either to feel important or because of pride. The Body of Christ should work together inside and outside the church along with other churches (the whole body) to fulfill the Great Commission. We would do much better working together for a cause rather than tearing each other down over an issue. What does that say to our community?
7. Well, I never heard of the concept of taking out Genesis and 3 John out of the Bible before.
October 5th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Wendy,
Re: Your answers to number 5
Very decisive! I liked your points about the seventh and eighth ones. They sound good on the surface so it would be easy for someone to be going through the list fast and give them a high positive number. Maybe if they added a qualifier like ‘beyond that which you could bear’. (I Cor 10:13)
October 7th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
Lesson 6 Q’s
1. Getting intoxicated would probably be a weak non-essential objective for me. It is bad stewardship, it is a loss of control, can lead us to do things we really regret, and in some people more than others. Yes, I consistently apply it, but have fallen, partly because certainty level here is weak. In the Jewish tradition and I believe in the OT, getting drunk was a specific commanded value. I.e. on passover we’re supposed to drink 4 cups of wine. Often people are more honest and easier to communicate with after drinking. So I’m weakly certain of this.
2. If someone preaches eating healthily, they obviously need to be able to walk the walk. If someone teaches driving, and they get caught speeding, their credibility will go down significantly. We can look in the mirror and ask others to hold us accountable. Also asking God to show us how we can be a better witness helps, too.
3. God, humankind’s falleness, Christ’s deity, death, resurrection, substitutionary attonement, justification by grace through faith alone, an afterlife.
4. Essential for orthodoxy: God wrote Scripture for us to follow and obey. People are fallen and are all subject to sin. There is a heaven, and hell. God rewards the Believers according to their works eventually. We will be co-rulers with Christ. We are children of God and God watches us, knows our hearts, and cares about much of the things we do everyday, how we do them, and why.
5. I found that I have been pretty dogmatic about things that I’m not totally certain about like the rapture, seven literal days, and the apocryphia. I’m really not certain about tongues, about 3 John, and whether Christ paid sins of all mankind or just those who believe.
6. I’m really glad that the essential unifying doctrines are really quite few. I don’t want everyone to be like me, and I’ve been afraid that I’d be unequally yoked if I dated or married a woman who disagreed with me on one of the non-essentials. It also reminds me that it’s possible to have saved members of the non protestant church.
7. I was really challenged by the idea that people can be saved and not believe in a lot of the same things I do. They can also be saved even though they’re living in sin. But, it’s foolish to do so. I also realized that it is really essential for me to go work out more and live healthily to improve my witness and live according to orthodoxy. I’m glad to know that the body can be more unified than it currently appears.
October 10th, 2008 at 5:00 am
Hey Mitch,
I found your answers especially good in that they sparked a number of responses in me. First I hadn’t even thought of your example in your answer to number 1. It just goes to show there can be legitimate reasons for variance on non-essentials.
I could easily relate to your answer to number 5. Probably many of us have fallen into overstressing the non-essentials to the point where we make them either / or litmus tests for others.
And your answers to number 6 and 7 brought to mind how liberating it can be to realize the things you mention. And another good point in there was that it might be possible to be saved with only the essentials, but not necessarily the best way to go.
October 11th, 2008 at 9:16 am
Case Stduy #!
My wife was my volunteer (she was the only one who was interested enough to invest the time - what a GREAT woman!).
What is theology?
“Studying about God.”
How does a person come to an understanding about God?
“From church, from their parents, from Sunday school, from what they read in the Bible, and from how they see God move in their own life.”
What common mistakes do you think that a person commits with regards to the Bible and theology?”
“They let their feelings decide if they are going to obey what they read and what they are taught instead of taking God at His Word. And, they let their emotions decide for them if what they are hearing someone teach is the truth or not without studying it for themselves. I thinbk something else that is very common is listening to someone teach something, and just because they’re on T.V., or they are in a big church, or they just happen to like what hey hear, they don’t check out the teaching on their own. A lot of false teaching get’s believed that way.”
***We then went through the categories of theology and walked through the theological process charts. My Case Study Volunteer (okay, my wife…) responded:
“Until you became my pastor, I always read the Bible and figured that whatever God was saying there applied to me somehow. I used to sit in church and, whenever I heard a message about some sin or something that we needed to do differently, I was convinced that God intended everything in that message for me, and all I had to do was figure it out and I would be okay. I would go to the altar and ask for prayer, and I would stay there, asking God to speak to my heart and show me just what it was I needed to do. I was exhausted!
Now I know that we have to study the context of what the text is saying - who wrote it, what did they mean twhen they wrote it, how did the people they wrote it to understand it, what was going on when it was written, why was it written when it was, and all of that. Then we have to find out how the Church has taught about these things, what different views of the passage or the truths there are, and which of those makes the most sense within the context of what we have learned already and what we have read today. THEN we find out how that applies to us today.
You always tell us, ‘Nothing is in the Bible for no reason. There is always something to be learned, even if it is just to help us understand the nature and character of God better.’ So, I guess you need to see this as a confirmation that you have been doing it right, huh?”
October 11th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Could someone explain ‘essential for orthodoxy’?
WEBSTER:
1. of, pertaining to, or conforming to the approved form of any doctrine, philosophy, ideology, etc.
2. of, pertaining to, or conforming to beliefs, attitudes, or modes of conduct that are generally approved.
3. customary or conventional, as a means or method; established.
4. sound or correct in opinion or doctrine, esp. theological or religious doctrine.
5. conforming to the Christian faith as represented in the creeds of the early church.
6. (initial capital letter) of, pertaining to, or designating the Eastern Church, esp. the Greek Orthodox Church.
7. (initial capital letter) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of Orthodox Jews or Orthodox Judaism.
So, in the context of this lesson, what does it mean to be essential for orthodoxy? Does it mean essential to conforming to a certain creed? Which one? Does it mean essential to conforming to the doctine of my church? …..what are we talking about here?
Thanks!
Denise
October 11th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Answers to Session 6 Discussion Questions:
1) I would place “getting intoxicated” in the True Objectivity/Non-Essential Objectivity quadrant. This, is, I believe, true for all people at all times in all places, but not essential for salvation. There are two Scriptural principles that i believe this violates:
A) Ephesians 5:18 - “And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit”. Herein is shown the contrast between the sensuality and debauchery that results from being under the control of an intoxicant (hence the word “dissipation”) with the resulting hurt and harm that goes along with that, and being under the control of the Holy Spirit, with the resulting healing and wholeness, the mind and attitude of Christ, that results from that choice.
B) 1 Corinthians 6:19 - “Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?” We do not belong to ourselves; we are stewards of this body in which Jesus Christ indwells us by the power of the Holy Spirit. To poison it, put it at risk, allow it to be under the control of that which is in direct opposition to the fruit and focus of the life of Christ in us, should be anathema to our way of life.
2) To condemn a behavior that creates the same results as another behavior that we ourselves are invlolved in wihtout being condemning of that is hypocritical. This inconsistency from the Church is the reason that a Barna poll last year showed that 86% of unchurched 18-24 year-olds defined Christians as being judgmental and hypocritical.
We need, first of all, to get holiness back into the main vein of Christianity. How can we be the moral compass of society when the “sins of the culture [have] become the sins of the church?” We also need to stifle the tone and timber of our voices and our language when we do speak out against the evils we see around us. The Holy Spirit will bring conviction all on His own - He doesn’t need our help.
If we look at our own lives and what worked for us to bring us to repentance, I am sure we will most likely recall that what Paul says in Romans 2:4 really is the truth, “that the kindness of God leads you to repentance.”
3) Doctrines that are essential for salvation (center-circle):
The Trinity, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, the atoning work of Christ on the cross, and salvation by grace through faith.
Now, the degree to which a person understands these doctrines can be minimal, but I believe they are essential. The essentials are so simple that a small child can understand them enough to have a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. A child may not understand that Jesus is God, but they can understand the Jesus is God’s Son - the gateway to understanding the deity of Jesus Christ as well as the doctrine of the Trinity.
Naturally, as a person continues to grow in their faith, in their knowledge and understanding of the essential truths, they will bear in their lives the fruit of the growth. However, thay wil not be any more “saved” than they were tje moment that they first believed.
4) The doctrines that are essential for orthodoxy is a much broader category. Not holding to these doctrines of the faith would place a person beyond the pale. In addition to the essentials, this would include:
A) The Bible is the inspired, infallible, and inerrant Word of God. It is the primary source for knowing what God has to say about the things God has something to say about. No other writings, revelations or prophecies are to be considered as an authoritative source of truth and/or interpretation of the Bible. No organization, individual and/or group of individuals is to be considered as a/the primary source of Bible interpretation; s/he/they are not inspired on a par with those who, inspired by the Holy Spirit, wrote the Scriptures, nor are they apostles on a par with the apostles personally appointed by Jesus Christ.
B) The deity of Jesus Christ, in that He is fully God and fully man, and that He is the same in essence though different in person as God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
B1) This would bring in the doctrine of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.
C) Man is sinful and destined for eternal separation from God as a result. Therefore, man is not basically good, though he is created in the image of God.
D) The need for and the reality of the substitutionary atoning death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
E) Salvation is by grace alone through faith. Nothing that we can do can or will grant us, gain for us, or maintain for us our salvation - it is the work and gift of God in and through Jesus Christ.
F) God literally created the universe out of nothing, things seen and unseen, and that nothing that exists was not created by Him and for Him.
G) Baptism and the Lord’s Supper are the two sacraments that Jesus Christ ordained for those who would be His disciples after Him.
H) Believers are to live lives that are not conformed to this world, but that prove out the truth that He has made us “a holy nation, a royal priesthood.”
I) The life of a disciple of Jesus Christ is to be marked by gracious, merciful, patient love.
5) The Chart of Certaininty will soon become, I am certain (10), an extremely useful tool for me to employ throughout all levels of teaching and ministering. My personal “scores” for the items listed:
There is a God? 10
That Christ rose from the grave? 10
That God loves you? 10 (that He likes me? maybe a 2)
That Christ is going to come and Rapture the Church before the Great Tribulation? 6
Christ is coming back to reign on the earth for a thousand years? 8
That Christ is coming back? 10
That God wants you to trust that He will protect you from all physical harm? –10
That God wants you to trust that He will protect you from all emotional harm? –10
That God wants you to trust in Him in every circumstance? 10
That the Bible does not have any historical errors? (original autographs) 10
That Adam and Eve were real people? 10
That there was really a snake in the garden? 10
That God created the earth in seven literal days? 9.5
That God created the earth? 10
That Christ paid for the sins of all mankind? 10
That Christ died for you? 10
That the Apocrypha (15 books in the Roman Catholic Bible) should not be included in Scripture? 10
That the book of 3 John should be included in Scripture? 10
That the book of Genesis should be included in Scripture? 10
That the gift of tongues ceased in the first century? 8
6) Our group experienced basic unity in the essentials, even though there was not a little discussion when it came to just how simple the core essentials needed to be. This demonstrated to me that, when believers in Jesus Christ purpose to come together as the Body, with no personal agenda, but with the primary purpose to celebrate and grow in who we are in Christ, there exists a bond that goes beyond normal human relationship.
This, I believe, speaks well to Paul’s decalaration in Ephesians 4:4-6, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.” As Rupert Meldenius has been quoted as saying, “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”
October 11th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
I found an answer to my question on P&P.
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/ParchmentandPen/files/Michael-Patton/An%20Emerging%20Understanding%20of%20Orthodox.pdf
October 14th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
1. Where would you place “getting intoxicated” in the quadrant chart? What is the chief principle that it violates? Are you consistently applying this principle in other parts of your own life? Explain.
–I’m going to put this in the non-essential objectivity quadrant. Why because scripture tells us not to be drunk with wine and there can be a harmful effect to ourselves and others by altering our state of mind allowing one to act in ways that would seem contrary to our Christian values.
2. Many Postmodern call the Church hypocritical because of inconsistency in what the Church condemns and how Christians live. Explain how someone who does not eat healthy, but who condemns a person for smoking, might be thought of a hypocrite. What can we do to be more consistent? –As it was pointed out we need to analyze the conditions why something is discouraged in the scriptures, and then we need to be consistent by applying these conditions to other areas. For example smoking is a bad habit, expensive, and can harm your body over time. Also unhealthy eating habits can be considered a bad habit, with long-term health consequences such as obesity, heart disease, and diabetes. I remember as young Christian being told that my body was the temple of the Holy Spirit and should treat it as such.
3. Further discuss which doctrines you believe are essential for salvation. Place them in the center of the Circle of Importance. –Obviously belief in the existence of God and then that he has spoken through though his scriptures. Jesus who he is (deity); His life, His death and His resurrection. And that we are saved by faith.
4. Further discuss which doctrines you believe are essential for orthodoxy, other than those you placed in the “essential for salvation” category. –MTH. 28 Therefore go and make disciples go and make disciples of all nations baptizing in the name of the father the son and the Holy Spirit. We our followers of Christ and as He represented the Father, we are his representatives while present in these bodies. And many others.
5. Discuss the Chart of Certainty and the answers that you gave to each question
1. There is a God? +9
2. That Christ rose from the grave? +9
3. That God loves you? +9
4. That Christ is going to come and Rapture the Church before the Great Tribulation? -0
5. Christ is coming back to reign on the earth for a thousand years? +1 (I need to restudy this).
6. That Christ is coming back? +6
7. That God wants you to trust that He will protect you from all physical harm? -2
8. That God wants you to trust that He will protect you from all emotional harm? -2
9. That God wants you to trust in Him in every circumstance? +8
10. That the Bible does not have any historical errors? +4
11. That Adam and Eve were real people? +4
12. That there was really a snake in the garden? +4
13. That God created the earth in seven literal days? 0
14. The God created the earth? +9
15. That Christ paid for the sins of all mankind? +0 (I have some problems with the wording here).
16. That Christ died for you? +9
17. That the Apocrypha should not be included in Scripture? +2
18. That the book of 3 John should be included in Scripture? +9
419. That the book of Genesis should be included in Scripture? +9
20. That the gift of tongues ceased in the first century? -2
6. Did your group find essential unity even though you disagree upon minor issues? How does this help you to understand the essential unity of the Body of Christ? By my group I assume you mean my Church body. I would say that yes we do believe in the essentials and on the minor issues I would say that we agree to disagree, but I don’t know everyone’s view on this.
7. How was your thinking most challenged by the lesson? Explain. –It reminds me of a book I read some time ago titled “THE MYTH OF CERTAINTY” by a Daniel Taylor. At that time it open my eyes to our limits to certainty (just as this lesson has reminded me). By being aware of the limits of certainty and the different types of certainty I can avoid over stating things. This can be especially helpful in dialog when talking about the nature of God, the Bible, and clarifying the truths that I have come to love and trust.
October 15th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
Warren, I think your answer to number 2 had a good point in particular to it:
“We need, first of all, to get holiness back into the main vein of Christianity.”
I remember there was a bit of a buzz about that when the two Navigator books - Pursuit of Holiness and Practice of Godliness - were popular (I mean around Christian schools). But after a while I never heard anything more about it aside from the occasional reference to a need for holiness in some sermons.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:12 am
Richard,
You mentioned in your answer to number 2 factors that lead to obesity. This and other examples point to a whole lot we could put in nonessential objective. Probably any dietary practice out of moderation, failing to exercise, not making sure to get enough sleep, etc.
October 18th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Forest,
There are some of “us” who still preach holiness as being part of what it means to be a disciple if Jesus Christ. That we will never attain to perfect holiness this side of heaven does not negate the necessity of us making a daily, purposeful commitment to be more and more “set apart” to God for His purposes and His usefulness, and willing to submit to every truth that he reveals to us. It takes a great deal of grace to preach this message effectively, and I pray every day for more of that.