Fall 2008 Online Certificate Students:
View all sessions below. Then log all your comments, questions, discussion question answers, criticisms, or thoughts below.
NOTE: This is not the place for general discussion and questions. Go to the foyer for general discussion and refer to the FAQ on the right for question. Time spent in the comments section will apply toward your one hour of community time per week. To download audio sessions, visit the course homepage on the TTP site. The next session will be posted each Wed._______________________________What are the sources that Christians should go to for truth? Is experience a valid source? How about emotion? Or should we only turn to the Scriptures when looking for truth? In this important session we will examine all the sources for truth that are available, evaluating them for their trustworthiness. This session rebuilds the “stage of truth” that will be used for the remainder of the program. The student should leave with a better understanding of the benefits and deficiencies of emotion, experience, reason, tradition, general revelation, and special revelation.
Where do we go for truth? [20:49m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download How do the various traditions view truth? Part 1 [17:37m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download How do the various traditions view truth? Part 2 [9:42m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download What are the benefits and deficiencies of each source? Part 1 : Play Now | Play in Popup | Download What are the benefits and deficiencies of each source? Part 2 [10:45m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download
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October 10th, 2008 at 4:48 am
Here are my answers to this week’s discussion questions:
1. Read Rom. 8:28. How has your experience helped you to better understand this passage?
Experience probably works with Scripture here to strengthen faith. Or I guess someone could say the Scripture comes from experience (”And we know…”) in this case. Or is this supposed to indicate to us how our experience can help us better understand the predestined/foreknowledge issue that comes up in the scriptures that follow? I must confess I don’t know if this question is trying to get at something or just is a very simple question. I’ll go with the simple one, lol. I think experience helps me understand this to say that things work out for the best for those who love God and have received or know of a calling from Him. From experience, I would think it also alludes to truly loving God resulting in actively seeking out and discerning one’s calling, whatever that may be.
2. Read Rom. 10:13. How has your experience affected the way you read this passage?
Well, first my experience tells me to read the verses before and after and check that footnote to get some idea of what I’m looking for, lol. From this I gather this is a quotation from Joel 2:32 and is being used apparently as a bridge between two points. On the one hand it is being used to point out that both Jew and Gentile must call on the Lord to be saved (vs 12 - 13). The point transitioned to refers to the need for the word to be preached for ‘everyone’ to be able to hear and believe it (vs 13 - 15). So this kind of ends up making a neat connection with a ‘tradition’ of preaching if tradition is transitioned to with the next question. But noooo…. (lol).
3. Read 1 Tim. 2:11–14. How could both your experience and emotions affect the way you interpret this passage? Explain.
Here we go again - if the reader can’t tell yet, I’m not the most experiential kind of guy, lol. And emotions eh…? Well, the verse turned out an interesting choice - startin’ stuff up early in the program! This would make a great memory verse! Seriously though, experience and emotion really just don’t affect me here. I try to look at something like this with reason. The general spirit of the behavior recommended for church - humility, less talking/more listening describes what I think would be good for both genders, the only distinction being men having the authority. I note that the verse on teaching (vs 12) only says what Paul himself practices - so a recommendation more than some kind of command.
4. Tradition is the easiest and most accessible way to acquire information. Further discuss some of the values and dangers of tradition.
Tradition functions well in making things more identifiable and to have a system in place to initiate new members. It also creates a sort of history - both overall, and of how the tradition was carried out and ‘customized’ for a particular congregation. I think dangers come as they did for the Catholic church before the Reformation in relying too much on tradition for its convenience and comfort. This turns it into something more for man than for God. It may also allow the other sources use to fall back further off stage into oblivion from atrophe and neglect.
5. Sola Scriptura is the reformation principle that Scripture alone is the primary and only infallible source for truth. In what ways do we deny this principle in our own lives? What can be done to correct this?
We do this by holding to this claim while we don’t take Scripture seriously enough to practice the same level of infallibility we expect in the Scripture in our obedience. If anyone believes it is infallible, one would think it’d be important to oneself to follow it infallibly, because if God made sure it came to us meaning perfectly how it is supposed to, then He probably wants what it says done! Further our actions not agreeing with what we claim is an infallible Word of God opens the Church up to further claims of hypocrisy. We can correct this by clarifying at least our own imperfections, and demonstrating a real effort in following what it says in a manner that shows we really believe Scripture is the Word of God.
6. What have you learned about God from General Revelation?
From nature I’ve learned from the intricacies of how things work together about some of what (as far as I am able to humanly perceive) God can do as well as the lengths He goes to in providing and maintaining this world for us. The beauty in nature is amazing and says a lot about its Creator. From other critters we can see God always makes a way for life to happen! (added 2008: ) And not only to happen but to be worthwhile.
7. How can you have a respect for tradition while at the same time avoiding traditionalism?
I think it’s just about keeping tradition in the proper place (on stage, lol?). I think if it is recognized for its real value and dangers, then a cautious regard for it can be worthwhile. It is important not to become too comfortable with tradition to the point of neglecting other sources, especially Scripture. Respecting a tradition is simply a matter of understanding where it came from, why it is adhered to, and actually respecting the people following it even if it may not be strictly ‘orthodox’ according to ourselves.
8. Which stage of truth do you aspire to, and which stage of truth do you actually live according to? How can you correct this?
I like the Proposed one - it seems like a good balance. Where I have actually been at is more the Protestant one with an occasional performance on the Fundamentalist stage (it’s easy for me to relate to this one as I mentioned due to my not being an experiential/emotional type). The desire for reason usually keeps me at the Protestant stage. But the Proposed one may be slightly better for including what may be missing on the Protestant stage. As long as I’m on one of the Pro stages, ar ar. I would have to think and pray more on this to actually know if I need to ‘correct’ anything, but then prayer may be just the ticket to lead me to any needed corrections.
9. How was your thinking most challenged by the lesson? Explain.
I think the only challenge was for me to try to think in terms of the experiential/emotional sources, and where their place on the stage should be. The whole stage set up is an interesting analogy to ponder as these ‘actors’ could be in very slightly different exact spots for each ‘performance’ or ‘audience’. This analogy could really be taken far, but then it might become more distraction than useful visual tool.
October 10th, 2008 at 5:47 am
Both / and
I remember when I took this program as self study that I was surprised to find I liked the Both / And approach Olsen takes to addressing issue in the Church. Although it may not work out for every issue, I think in at least the ones he discusses that he makes a good argument for its superiority to the Either / Or (Here I go risking invoking Kierkegaard again, lol) approach. I don’t know though if Both / And is an approach many churches would be willing to try out though…
Did anyone else have any thoughts on the Olsen readings?
October 21st, 2008 at 10:57 am
This was a great lesson!
1. God works together for the good for those who love Him. Yes, but the good may take days, weeks, months, years, or eternity to be determined. Fortunately, I have never yet seen the good take more than months or years to come to pass.
2. Yes, everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved… but my experience is that there are many who call on the name of the Lord, but do not accept the essentials for salvation, and therefore are not saved. This passage is in the context of Jew and gentile’s all believing in the same God. Some Jews are not saved because they do not believe that Jesus is the messiah–and a systematic interpretation of scripture would say that they are therefore not saved.
3. 1 Tim 2:11-14. Experience and emotion are both very active when reading this passage. My emotions tell me that is too controlling of us to expect women to be perfectly submitted, and my experience is that it is possible, because I have seen women like this. But I have never experienced any woman my age who is submitted anywhere close to the manner that Paul describes here. It is an issue I struggle with in determining characteristics and qualities for my future wife–how submitted must I expect her to be, and how much is unreasonable to ask. I don’t think I know what that would look like in the context of our culture today.
4. Tradition is incredibly easy because it really just requires that new disciples copy-cat the behavior of those of the previous generation. It sets a good example and people learn well through this method. BUT, if people set bad examples or people misinterpret things, then the wrong message can VERY easily be passed down and continue without any double-checking to see if what we’re doing is consistent with other sources of truth.
5. Sometimes we see scripture say one thing, but our traditions (or what we learned in school) might dictate another message. It is very difficult for me (and others) to replace our own traditions and experience and practice with things that are biblical. When I start to reason that biblical submission is abusive, scripture tells me otherwise, but I can’t seem to bring myself to completely understanding it and even submitting myself. To correct this, I just need to believe what the scriptures say in general about it, recognize the historical context of it, and try to reason and ask God what biblical submission would look like today. This is, I believe, a systematic approach.
6. It is easy to learn about God from general revelation–the heavens declare it and pour forth the works of his hands. I’ve learned that there is a God who made a wonderful world for us to, at the very least, enjoy. He delights in us enjoying his beauty. God is majestic, magnificent, omnipotent, and also can be hazardous!
7. Traditionalism is ‘this is the way we have always done it, therefore that is how we will do it, period.’ I should respect that the traditions may be traditions for a reason. Perhaps this is the experience of the teachers and they probably know better than I do. But not necessarily. We should systematically look at all sources of truth before obeying. If something is clearly inconsistent with scripture, then the traditions should be questioned and brought into systematic theological context.
8. I don’t know if I fit the mold for the common stages of truth, but I can say that I think I do not have experience and reason as close to the front as I think I should. I would like to aspire to ‘proposed’ stage of truth where reason plays a higher role. I also want to bring in all of the lessons that I have learned in the world (experience) aside from spiritual ones and even from before the time I was a believer. General revelation also should play a higher role in my life. Just observing human nature can tell us a lot about God. That probably settles my confusion a bit in regards to biblical order. Just from observing human organizations, I can tell that they all have some sort of order to them. Maybe…. I guess I still havn’t settled on this.
October 23rd, 2008 at 1:17 pm
So here I am. I won’t be able to make table talk tonight so I’ll be using the forum as my community time.
1. If I leaned on my experience here, I would refer to times of trouble in my past. Times when I considered events to be detrimental and unfair. I would then recount how God came in and everything was fine. My church experience would then enter the picture and say, I see now that what was meant for evil God turned it around for God. Yet things aren’t that simple for me as it is for Forest and I have experienced things, sexual abuse for example and will never be made good in my opinion, unlike Epstein. Certainly, I could rationalize that I am able to help others to become survivors and not victims. Still that does not make the initial experience a good one in any way.
I don’t believe that every experience I have has to be made somehow to be good. My experiences beg to differ.
So my experience wouldn’t help me understand this any better. I suppose.
2. My experience forces me to acknowledge that this is not enough information to intelligently conclude it’s meaning and intent.
Like Epstein “my experience is that there are many who call on the name of the Lord, but do not accept the essentials for salvation, and therefore are not saved.”
So other experience would lead me to research and study for the true meaning.
3. Experience and Emotion effect me greatly here. As in the case above, I would be force to dig deeper. Emotionally, I would want to dig deeper. I grew up with a single mother. My mentors of the faith have for the most part been women. I have experienced great benefit for the scholarship of women and would be undone if not for their wisdom. I also have no desire to control any other person. Submission to me is for the protection of the person. Love or good intention is a prerequisite. I can’t lovingly tell a woman that she has nothing to contribute.
4. The clear values of tradition to me center around the benefit of collective wisdom. The opinion and position of those closer to the start hold much value. The negative is the fact that tradition can be incorrect. Also to use a TTP term it can lead to Folk theology and mindlessness.
5. We deny this when we refuse or neglect to submit to scripture in areas of our daily lives. When we don’t handle money, marriage or members of the body in the way the bible suggest for example. This of course can be fixed by diligence and obedience.
6. I have learned of His power, His existence and His order and
October 23rd, 2008 at 1:21 pm
purpose for all things created.
7. My answer here may be way to simple. I thinking all that is required is to use reason.
8. I believe I am where I aspire to be. Scripture - Reason- Tradition all upfront. Emotion and experience in the back.
October 23rd, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Let me add (since I think I need more time) that the TTP has been apart of my journey. A little more than a year ago I walked away from full time ministry in a charismatic environment. It’s the way I grew up but I grew frustrated with the requirement to mindlessly follow things not supported by scripture.
I wrote about this recently and would love you thoughts. You can find it on http://myscream.wordpress.com/ which is my
blog.
October 25th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
Hey Mitch,
There’s a very spot on part of your answer to number 2:
“..there are many who call on the name of the Lord, but do not accept the essentials for salvation..”
I’ve come across a number like this. They call on the Lord, and probably are sincere as far as wanting that to do something for them. Yet they are really calling conditionally - if they see results, then they’ll believe or follow more, They want to qualify how or what they will repent, etc. It’s almost as if they’ve played games in their dealing with people through their lives so they think this is a good approach with God as well. Doh! Yet thankfully while I’ve seen a number like this, I’ve also seen some of those finally realize the problem with their approach and get real with God, and then move forward in a variety of ways - actually become saved, start bearing real fruit, etc (in these ways I mean as far as it was possible for me to tell, they became more real).
October 27th, 2008 at 12:05 am
Answers to Session 8 questions:
1) This verse has had a great deal of “experiential proofs” in my life. Horrendous things occured in my life from a very young age, but God has redeemed those things and has not only used those things to strengthen me as He softened me, but also proved out another passage that He is the “God of all comfort who comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.” (2 Corinthians 1:3c-4) There have been a variety of things that I have experienced and witnessed in thelives of others that have demonstrated time and again the phenominal way that this verse is true over and over again, especially when logic would demand otherwise.
2) Did my father call on the name of the Lord before he died? Is he in heaven, or is he not? When we realize that “name” in the Bible signifies a ‘total’ instead of a ‘title’, I think we have a clearer understanding of what it means to call upon the “name of the Lord”. It means that we know Him personally; that we are familiar with His nature and character from the Scriptures; that we know that we are far removed from Holy God and are incapable of bridging the gap on our own; that living a life of obedience to what He has revealed about Himself and His will is foundational to being Christ-like in our world; and that being daily transformed into His likeness is the work that God is doing in our lives everyday.
3) Once again, life experience has demonstrated the wisdom of this passage. One of the interesting things that I have discovered in the many discussions I have been involved in regarding this passage is the poor exegesis - in fact, exegetical gymnastics - that many go through to try to make this passage say something other than what it does plainly say. The emotions run hot and fast about this passage.
I have seen this doctrine lived ot by many godly women, mature in their faith, confident of who they are in Christ, with faith solidly in Him and not in their own ability to control or manipulate people and circumstances. On the other side of this, I have also seen women completely out of order in this regard and the results have been disastrous.
One of the things that I always have found inersting is just how clear and succinct Paul is in his teaching here. He is quite clear in not using a social reason for this doctrine, but instead goes back to the same Creation-story passage that Jesus refers to when He is conversing with the Pharisees about divorce in Matthew 19.
In both instances, the teacher of the moment explains that the reasons for the doctrine are spiritual, not social or conditional - the reasoning is grounded in the order that God ordained from the beginning. There is an order that God has instituted, and we would be well served to know it and live by it in more of the spheres of our lives. When we walk up to a machine and see an “Out of Order” sign on it, we know two things: One, it either does not work properly or it does not work at all; and, Two, it needs to be either repaired or replaced.
When we take the emotion out of it, the Scripture is clear. When we allow our emotions to be incontrol, the result is confusion. I wonder which is of God?
4) The real plus to taditions is that it is the easiest way for us to learn many things. It also is a major aid is us feeling our connection to generations past, whether it be in our families or in our faiths. As a United Sates Marine, tradition was and is one of the strongest bonds that we have with other Marines. You’ve heard the saying, I’m sure: “once a Marine, always a Marine.”
On the other side of this, traditions can be founded on nothing but blue sky and wrong suppositions. To do something simply because it is tradition may feel good, but it may make absolutely no real sense. In fact, it can be dangerous on many fronts. Roman Catholicism is often cited as an example, but what about The Watch Tower Societ (JW) and The Church of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons)? We as Evangelicals, Catholics, and the like, know that these are cults because their superstitions and traditions override the clear teaching of Scripture. Generations condemned to hell because they believe the lie without seeking thr truth apart from their tradition. May God be merciful!
5) Sola Scriptura as a doctrine rises or falls on the key word “infallible”. If we really believed this to be true, I sincerely doubt that the world would not be in the shape it is in today. What would our lives be lived like if we really believed that we are called and anointed to be the Body of Christ in this world? Whose lives would we not be trying to reach with the Gospel? Whose lives would we not feel driven to touch with the grace of giving self-sacrificially? Who would be able to make the accusation of “Hypocrite!” stick? I could go on, but we need to be challenged abou this. And, what “secret sins” would we not be engaged in if we really believed in the omni-presence of the Most High?
6) Living within 90 minutes of the Oregon coast, there have been more opportunites to be awestruck by the power of the ocean than I can count. To feel the massive presence and power of the Pacific Ocean, to see the transforming power of the water and waves, to witness the unending rhythm of the complex systems that are involved in the eco-cycle in that place, and to feel how miniscule I am in relation to all of that gives me an overwhelming sense of the power of the One who created it all. How anyone can experience that and not be convinced of the Creator is beyond me.
7) The proper persepective can be maintained, I think, if we give priority to the proper things - like the Scriptures and reason. If tradition stands “front stage, center”, then traiditonalism is the natural outcome. However, keeping the balance with Scripture at the forefront, supported by reason,tradition, and the rest, then the proper balance is struck and truth has a greater chance to win out in our lives.
9) Challenged? Not so much by the lesson, I think, but by trying to see how this applies to the perspectives of the people in my life and ministry. It has been very helpful in being able to “discect” how many of them decide what is true and what isn’t. I think it will be a great tool in the future.
October 27th, 2008 at 12:10 am
Forest -
About Olson and the “both/and” premise…I’m still pondering that pretty much. Some of what he said made sense, but I didn’t get a solid sense that he really lights on solid truth sometimes when I think he should. LIke I have mentioned before, his premise here sounds borderline-Emergent, so I am reading and re-reading that chapter trying to see where he and I can agree and where I won’t be able to agree with him. There are time swhen I believe that either/or really does apply, that there are transcendent, non-negotiables, and that a variant “opinion” is, in reality, heresy.
November 12th, 2008 at 1:18 am
LESSON 8
1. Read Rom. 8:28. How has your experience helped you to better understand this passage? –Well from my experiences in the past as I remember encountering difficult situations and sometimes even wondered what God was doing. But then as time passed, I began to see that God did have his hand in these particular events. So from these past experiences I would acknowledge that at the time it is hard to go through uncertain circumstances, but trusting in God’s revelation we are promised things will work out according to his will.
2. Read Rom. 10:13. How is your experience and emotions affected the way you read this passage? Again from the experiences that I have learned from studying and trusting the scriptures, I have hope that those who hear and understand the word of God, and then calling on the name of Jesus–they will also be saved.
3. Read 1 Tim. 2:11–14. How could both your experience and emotions affect the way you interpret this passage? Explain.
–Again my experiences are a result of learning from the scriptures. So from what I have gleaned from this passage and other scriptures, would provide me with the means to help me interrupt this passage. My emotions would then come into play and from the consensus of the scriptures, I would feel very strongly that there is more going on in this passage than just woman being quiet and submissive to men in church.
4. Tradition is the easiest and most accessible way to acquire information. Further discuss some of the values and dangers of tradition.
–Tradition is the beginning of our training and theological understanding. We pick this up from our parents, peers, and the authority figures of our churches. This can be a valuable tool during important stages in our lives and it may be the best source of training that is available. But tradition can also be a tool of error and then passed on down the road if it isn’t checked. Often people, instead of, searching the scriptures to see if they are correct assumes that they are theological sound, and then passionately present them to their surrounding cultures.
5. Sola Scriptura is the reformation principle that Scripture alone is the primary and only infallible source for truth. In what ways do we deny this principle in our own lives? What can be done to correct this?
–I would say that often, or perhaps occasionally, we jump on the bandwagon of some tradition or whim often without a critical examination of the scriptures. A way to correct this could be to allow our theological assumptions to be challenged by a contrary point of view and then to dig into the scriptures to see where the overwhelming evidence points.
6. What have you learned about God from General Revelation?
–By observing General Revelation I come away at noticing the remarkable beautiful, orderly, and finely tuned universe. I then ask: “How did this incredible ordered universe come to be?” From looking at the different theory’s it seems that there is a reason for what we see around us; there are marks of intelligence that would best be accounted for by a personal creator.
7. How can you have a respect for tradition while at the same time avoiding traditionalism?
–We must appreciate the lives of those saints who have gone before us. The lives, the sacrifices, and their perseverance in recording and protecting Gods truths deserve our respect.
But on the other hand we have to beware of the possibility of error creeping into the Church. If we our not careful, our uncritical believing could pass along and the result would be manmade traditions.
8. Which stage of truth do you aspire to, and which stage of truth do you actually live according to? How can you correct this?
–I would say that I find myself mostly living according to the Protestant reformation stage of truth, and if I should add to this it would be with the addition of emotions as suggested by the proposed stage of truth. Actually I would think this, emotions, is already at work since I don’t know how one could not have emotions reflecting all of the other above influences.
9. How was your thinking most challenged by the lesson? Explain.
–This lesson helped me see how others, of different beliefs or traditions are affected by their set stage of truth particularly by the priorities and placement they give to each of the disciplines.
November 21st, 2008 at 9:06 pm
1. Because I know and have been taught that God is good all the time even when we don’t understand what He is doing in our lives. I find this to be a fact in my life as I read and study His word.
2. My experience has been that not all people mean it in their heart and mind when the call on “His Name”. It could be a moment of panic or just not knowing what else to do or feeling like they need to say a set of phrases to have their lives changed. But above all, people need to know who Jesus is and what he did for them in order to truly call upon His name and be saved.
3. My experience/emotions want me to say this is not really what it means. Women can usually talk more than men and it takes quietness to hear from God and her husband. Women should not have authority over men in the home.
4. Tradition would tell us to go to church every Sunday and on special occassions. The value is to know God better and to worship Him by attending a church that teaches truth. The danger of this would be that people would equate going to church with salvation.
5. I would say we deny this principal when we do what everyone else is doing and not question or look into scripture ourselves and discuss the passages. It is easy to do things traditionally and not question what we are being taught especially when we are not serious about scripture.
6. He is all powerful and awesome. He is sufficient to supply all of our needs to live on the earth.
7. We can take what we have learned through tradition and compare it to scripture to see how it lines up. If it is in alignment, then continue, but if not, take it out.
8. Protestant Reformation Stage of Truth. Do I need to maybe put in reason a little above tradition.
9. The fact that we can use other sources of truth to see God (Nature/Reason) and that we don’t necessarily have to throw out tradition altogether.