Fall 2008 Online Certificate Students:
View all sessions below. Then log all your comments, questions, discussion question answers, criticisms, or thoughts below.
NOTE: This is not the place for general discussion and questions. Go to the foyer for general discussion and refer to the FAQ on the right for question. Time spent in the comments section will apply toward your one hour of community time per week. To download audio sessions, visit the course homepage on the TTP site. The next session will be posted each Wed.
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Does God still speak today through prophets, dreams, visions, and direct encounters or did He cease in the first century? If He did cease, why? Are those who claim speak on behalf of God to be tested the same way they were in biblical times? In this session, we will cover this important and divisive issue. If God still speak directly to people today, then we need to use those to whom He speaks as a primary source for truth. During this session, the student will learn and evaluate the arguments made by cessationists (those who believe that God does not speak directly or through prophets today) and continuationists (those who believe that He does), understanding that how one answers this question will greatly influence their theological methodology.
Does God still speak today? [16:11m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download What is the Continuationist view of prophecy? [14:49m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download What is the Hard Cessationist view of prophecy? Part 1 [14:47m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download What is the Hard Cessationist view of prophecy? Part 2 [12:09m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download What is the Soft Cessationist view of prophecy? [12:19m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download
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October 15th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
Here are my answers to the week 9 discussion questions:
1. In what ways have you experienced what you thought might be the “voice of God,” either through experience or emotion? How certain can you be that it was in fact God’s voice?
I do not believe I have experienced and “voice of God”. I believe I have experienced leadings that often go along with some scripture I have read. The result of following these have been what seems to be God working things out which would not of worked out otherwise. The only way to be certain a ‘word’ is of God is if it comes to pass.
2. Many people become more desirous to hear the “voice of God” outside of Scripture when there are difficulties in their lives. What is the danger in this? Explain.
I guess the obvious danger would be too much emphasis on emotion - giving it too much of our ’stage of truth’ as our analogy goes. Other related dangers may include forming the habit of falling back on this during future times of trouble. Another negative tendency this may develop is that of thinking of Scripture as worthwhile only up to a certain point, and not really of any use in serious trouble. This may seem like something no one would do, but I believe many people fall into this kind of thinking. It’s sort of like Saul’s (and many peoples’) attitude toward obeying God - fine until under pressure.
3. How have you been mislead by what you thought was God’s voice? In what ways did this confuse you?
I don’t believe that I have from hearing ‘God’s voice’ myself. There have been times when I have given people claiming to having a leading from God the benefit of the doubt, but I maintained a healthy skepticism even then. Sometimes it turned out that they appear to actually be following the right path, but many times it has turned out that they were just misled. And a few of those times, I escaped the same just barely, lol.
4. Hard cessationists have been falsely accused of denying that God can work miracles today, when in reality they do not deny that God can work miracles, but that God gifts particular people to work miracles. A hard cessationist may pray for God to miraculously heal someone of cancer just as hopefully as a continuationist. Does this clear up some misunderstanding? Explain.
I understood this correctly already. I think the main ‘bone of contention’ between cessationist and continuous has really been the Charismatic trademarks of speaking in tongues, dancing in the aisles, etc. This distinction in fact has always caused me some suspicion of those on both sides who seek the most contention. It seems as if they most rabidly defend what they want to be true. Cessationists seem insecure at times that other believers would have gifts they do not. Continuists seem desparate to hold on to something they see as making them special. While consideration of what God is saying is always important, how He says it seems like it should be less critical.
5. A verified prophet is one who performs an incredible sign or wonder, leaving no doubt in the minds of the observer that he or she is a prophet. Have you ever witnessed this? Explain.
No. Explain? Well, I have not witnessed this, lol. I’ve heard or read of some self-proclaimed ones, but they seem like shucksters. I have seen some great Bible study teachers whose insights they have brought - no doubt after having gone through our theological process (sorry, couldn’t resist) - have turned out to be gold. In a sense it was like a verifictaion effect because it would cause me to lend increasing creedance to what they said later.
6. God speaks in many different ways. The argument of this lesson is that we cannot be certain that we are hearing “God’s voice” unless it is verified through rightly interpreted Scripture or a verified prophet. How important does this make our study of Scripture? Explain.
It makes our study of Scripture even more critical as now it becomes necessary for being able to verify something supposedly coming from God. It also means that knowing Scripture well enough to either be able to tell whether a word claimed to be for God is verified, or at least know where to look for verification. It makes an even better theological understanding of Scripture as this program is for important to be able to verify claims on a deeper level.
7. How do you often “put God in a box” in your own life? Explain.
I think earlier in life I may have put God in a box in presuming that I should get whatever I prayed for. I would do this without considering God’s will, or others needs. Fortunately I think I have grown out of that thinking - I hope anyway! I’m guessing there are other areas in the past at least where I have put God in a box, but I have conveniently forgotten these, lol. Seriously though it is not hard to fall into this trap.
8. How was your thinking most challenged by the lesson? Explain.
Well, I would probably fall under the Soft Cessationist view - I think likely it has ceased, but am open to the possibility of God speaking whenever and however He wants. At any rate, my thinking has not been directly challenged per se, but I’ve certainly gained some insights and distinctions as always. Following the lines of arguments for each position was interesting and may find some polemic use, although I hope to never find myself in a rabid argument over this.
October 27th, 2008 at 9:59 am
1. In what ways have you experienced what you thought might be the “voice of God,” either through experience or emotion? How certain can you be that it was in fact God’s voice?
I was in church one Sunday morning and as a pastor was speaking from the pulpit, I came to believe the following:
This man allows sexual sin into his life. He is pursuing. He will likely fall.
This was a very strong feeling. I have never had a conversation with this person prior to this understanding or following. I do not know him except as the pastor that was speaking at that time. Several years later, that pastor was caught in sexual sin. This could be reasoned away by statistics….
In evaluating a ministry partner, we visited the foreign mission field and met with organizational leadership. I concluded the following:
There are significant doctrinal differences (rational). The leader is empire building (opinion/perception). Nepotism will be an issue
and will likely lead to dis-honesty (speculative/perception). Another leader has significant struggles with materialism which needs to
be monitored (observation). There was an exorcism – I believe it was staged.
Several years later the partnership was severely strained due to the realization of these exact issues. Except the exorcism…which I do believe is possible, but do not believe this one was authentic.
I walked into church one Sunday morning and as I opened the door – before I interacted with anyone at all – I had the overwhelming sense that something was very wrong. There was a heaviness that I did not understand – but felt. I told my husband immediately “something is very wrong here”. In the service the unexpected resignation of a pastor was announced. I don’t know why. Much later I learned that it was a very contentious situation. I continued to have the feeling that something was very wrong. Around the same time, many pastors, deacons and elders left that church. This was something that I felt and was not based on temporal assessment.
I have a ton more examples, but these will suffice.
I do not believe that anyone hears the audible voice of God. In these situations, I was NOT certain of what I thought to be true. It is only as they came to pass that what I thought/felt was authenticated. Could it just be perception, intuition, discernment…I don’t know…I do pay more attention now and prayerfully and cautiously take action (direct or indirect) if I perceive such things.
2. Many people become more desirous to hear the “voice of God” outside of Scripture when there are difficulties in their lives. What is the danger in this? Explain.
‘Hearing’ what we want to hear would be the obvious danger. Also allowing our emotions to take front and center on the stage of truth leading us in our own direction, rather than God’s.
3. How have you been mislead by what you thought was God’s voice? In what ways did this confuse you?
If you are referring to what I thought to be his direction…and I was wrong…Yes, I have been mislead by what I thought to be God’s direction, but when realizing it, I turned around. I still get confused - thinking God wants me to go left when He really wanted me to go right…. Confusion is likely made more clear by time in Scripture, wise counsel and prayer, so this is where I try to take things before taking action.
4. Hard cessationists have been falsely accused of denying that God can work miracles today, when in reality they do not deny that God can work miracles, but that God gifts particular people to work miracles. A hard cessationist may pray for God to miraculously heal someone of cancer just as hopefully as a continuationist. Does this clear up some misunderstanding? Explain.
I thought a hard cessationist believed that God did NOT use people to accomplish miracles…I am now confused…
5. A verified prophet is one who performs an incredible sign or wonder, leaving no doubt in the minds of the observer that he or she is a prophet. Have you ever witnessed this? Explain.
No. I have never met or experienced such claims.
6. God speaks in many different ways. The argument of this lesson is that we cannot be certain that we are hearing “God’s voice” unless it is verified through rightly interpreted Scripture or a verified prophet. How important does this make our study of Scripture? Explain.
Clearly it makes the study of Scripture of utmost importance since a verified prophet has yet to be seen.
7. How do you often “put God in a box” in your own life? Explain.
While I trust Him to care for me in most areas of my life, there are areas that I do not. I try, but His in-action sometimes leads me to action which shows how very small my faith really is. And my impatience.
I also think that my comprehension of God is too small. I say ‘here am I, send me’ yet have a very small ‘in a box’ view of how he might use me.
Don’t we all have a finite understanding of God, therefore have Him in our own box in some way?
8. How was your thinking most challenged by the lesson? Explain.
About 10 years ago, I took a class written by WCA to determine gifting etc…it was a 6-week study and was very comprehensive. Out of that study, it was determined that I had the gift of prophecy…NOW, before you start stringing me up as a heretic, their definition of this gift and the definition here are totally different!! Administration was actually my strongest gift and that is where I consistently hang my hat…so put the tar and feathers away.
My thinking was not as much challenged as corrected by this lesson. While I do believe that God uses other people in our lives to guide, correct, encourage, direct, teach, love, organize, etc….He does not speak directly and audibly to people today. My thinking was corrected in having a more accurate understanding of prophet. I also didn’t know the categories (cessation, continuation) and now have an understanding there.
I would categorize myself as a soft-cessationist…mostly because Michael makes a good case for it and I trust his intellect and the thought he has given it more than my own. And because it allows for the possibility that God would work in such a way today, but does not demand it.
October 28th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Here are my answers to the week 9 discussion questions:
1. In what ways have you experienced what you thought might be the “voice of God,” either through experience or emotion? How certain can you be certain that it was in fact God’s voice?
I would say by knowing things I should not know and getting a peace about the direction that should be taken in difficult situations. Pretty certain (after the fact) based on results. Before the fact I gain more certainty by using the biblical principles of testing these things in the light of scripture and among many advisors.
2. Many people become more desirous to hear the “voice of God” outside of Scripture when there are difficulties in their lives. What is the danger in this? Explain.
One huge danger of this is being susceptible to invalid and nonsensical responses. For example, it is possible today to pay a (so called) prophet to give you a word from the Lord. Also, counterfeit revivals are more frequent now and are drawing huge crowds. People believe that this is the will of God. Therefore when God does not show up and heal them on demand, some walk away from the faith and begin to hate or deny God. The bible also warns us about, having itching ears and surrounding ourselves with people who only say what we want to hear. The end is not good.
3. How have you been mislead by what you thought was God’s voice? In what ways did this confuse you?
I grew up in an environment where everybody hears from God. So over the years I have jokingly said that God appears to be schizophrenic. I have heard conflicting claims that we purported to have both come from God.
4. Hard cessationists have been falsely accused of denying that God can work miracles today, when in reality they do not deny that God can work miracles, but that God gifts particular people to work miracles. A hard cessationist may pray for God to miraculously heal someone of cancer just as hopefully as a continuationist. Does this clear up some misunderstanding? Explain.
Yes. The hard cessationist doesn’t believe that God is using people to perform miracles. Whereas I would have said they denying that God does work miracles today.
5. A verified prophet is one who performs an incredible sign or wonder, leaving no doubt in the minds of the observer that he or she is a prophet. Have you ever witnessed this? Explain.
No. Explain? I have never witnessed such a thing.
6. God speaks in many different ways. The argument of this lesson is that we cannot be certain that we are hearing “God’s voice” unless it is verified through rightly interpreted Scripture or a verified prophet. How important does this make our study of Scripture? Explain.
I going to act like I’m in class and say. Forest nailed it. I love what he said.
“It makes our study of Scripture even more critical as now it becomes necessary for being able to verify something supposedly coming from God. It also means that knowing Scripture well enough to either be able to tell whether a word claimed to be for God is verified, or at least know where to look for verification. It makes an even better theological understanding of Scripture.” - Forest Cole
7. How do you often “put God in a box” in your own life? Explain.
I honest pray that I no longer do this. God is God!
8. How was your thinking most challenged by the lesson? Explain.
The lesson challenged me to define more clearly what I believe about God speaking today. It also helped me to understand the position of others and the process of thinking behind their conclusions.
In an effort to continue to do theology in community I have blogged about this at
http://myscream.wordpress.com/2008/10/08/rethinking-who-speaks-for-god/
November 2nd, 2008 at 1:50 pm
1. Just a few weeks ago I woke up from a solid sleep and I heard (not audibly) “Feed my sheep”. I am not sure what I am to do with that information at this time, but I have been praying about it. I am guessing it is from the Lord, but I don’t know for sure. So, I will continue to pray about the direction of my life with regard to this to see what God’s will is for my life.
2. God speaks to us through His word and trying to find answers to problems outside of God’s word can lead us in direct opposition to what He wants for our lives. We must always seek God through His word and then through godly men/women who walk closely with the Lord.
3. I didn’t have an answer to an issue and I pushed for what I thought was the right decision (I didn’t wait), but I don’t think, in looking back, it was the best decision. It wasn’t necessarily wrong, but probably not God’s best for me at the time.
4. Not for me. How can someone be a hard cessationists and expect miracles? Seems like an oxymoron to me.
5. No. (I have heard of Benny Hinn, but have never seen him).
6. I don’t know about the prophet part of the question, but what we “hear” must line up with Scripture and we must pray about it and seek God before acting.
7. It can be easy to do, by only believing God can/will do certain things for certain people. But our God is so Powerful, Holy, and Awesome that we cannot wrap our finite minds around our infinite God. This is when we must have faith that everything that happens is beyond us and for His glory. The longer I live the more I am convinced that everything in our lives is to draw us to our knees and for us to lean totally and fully on Him for everything.
8. I have a hard time believing that people don’t believe God can still work miracles in any way He chooses, and that He can do anything! I also have a clearer understanding of what a “prophet” is and what the qualifications are for a prophet. I am glad I have not been given the responsibility of “Speaking for God”.
November 3rd, 2008 at 7:16 pm
1. I experienced a healing when I was first justified. I was rubbing my eyes obsessively and just couldn’t stop, but when I asked God for his forgiveness the desire left me completely. This was God’s confirming proof of his existance and justification. I know that it was God because nobody else was in the room at the time and it is something that no doctor could have noticed or cured. This happened to me once more since then. But usually I do not continual direct voices from God. The best I can do it keep in the word, keep aware of my feelings, conscience, laws, etc.
2. There is a danger when people seek the voice of God in the difficulty of their lives. I have many times! The danger is that we will listen more closely to the voices of others rather than the Word of God. We can be told things that may be inconsistent with Scripture.
3. I have been misled by God’s voice before. What I thought was God was really my own logic and conscience.
4. Yes it clears up misunderstanding. The argument is that only God can do miracles, he does not delegate to people on earth (prophets) . I accept this argument. The cessationist would argue that there are no prophets of God today because the cannon is closed and there is no need at all for prophets–it is all revealed in God’s Word. They wouldn’t argue that God is dead or asleep or doesn’t care. They just would argue that God is not going to give his powers to anyone else to heal me directly.
5. I have never witnessed a prophet who can do wonderous miracles. I have met people who have experienced God’s miracles and power. But nobody can do something like raise anybody from the dead. I’ve never met someone who has claimed to either… except Jesus of course.
6. It makes it completely essential that we study scripture well because if not than it will be very difficult to discern between God and other things that are also very powerful forces like our experience, logic, and feelings. We might see these things as the leading of the Holy Spirit but if they are inconsistent with the Word than they are not from God. I made this mistake once… oops.
7. I’m not totally sure I understand what it means to put God in a “box…”
8. I was totally challenged to be much more skeptical of spiritual gifts and anything other than the written Word to discern God’s will. I will see people who claim to have the gift of prophecy to have wisdom, encouragement, and exortation, but little more.
November 12th, 2008 at 1:22 am
LESSON 9
1. In what ways have you experienced what you thought might be the “voice of God,” either through experience or emotion? How certain can you be that it was in fact God’s voice? –Years ago, as a new Christian, I guess I got caught up in hearing God’s voice, and believed that God was telling me something about taking a sometimes frustrating, romantic relationship further into marriage. Well it didn’t happen, and I came to realize that I was injecting some of my own emotional feelings for what I thought was God’s will. (just a side note, I’m now on twenty-six great years of marriage and very happy).
2. Many people become more desirous to hear the “voice of God” outside of Scripture when there are difficulties in their lives. What is the danger in this? Explain. –First of all they may be in danger of leaning on their own understandings. We do have needs in our lives and sometimes they can become confusing especially in the various subcultures that we find ourselves. We are incredible of rationalizing what we think we may want, and in the process or long run make ourselves more miserable. So beware, instead of bypassing God’s wisdom for whatever reason, seek the wisdom of his word.
3. How have you been mislead by what you thought was God’s voice? In what ways did this confuse you? –This is similar to how I answered question # 1. There was much confusion as I thought I had a handle on God and his workings in my life. I misread scriptures, taking verses out of context to apply to me. I heard parts of sermons that I applied to my circumstances. But in looking back at things, this was only my doing and complicated matters more.
4. Hard cessationists have been falsely accused of denying that God can work miracles today, when in reality they do not deny that God can work miracles, but that God gifts particular people to work miracles. A hard cessationist may pray for God to miraculously heal someone of cancer just as hopefully as a continuationist. Does this clear up some misunderstanding? Explain. –This makes sense to me; as I have often wondered if someone really had the gift of healing, why wouldn’t they spend more time in children’s hospitals and cancer wards.
5. A verified prophet is one who performs an incredible sign or wonder, leaving no doubt in the minds of the observer that he or she is a prophet. Have you ever witnessed this? Explain. –No.
6. God speaks in many different ways. The argument of this lesson is that we cannot be certain that we are hearing “God’s voice” unless it is verified through rightly interpreted Scripture or a verified prophet. How important does this make our study of Scripture? Explain.
–We need to be aware of what God has said and done in the past to verify what someone may be alleging today.
7. How do you often “put God in a box” in your own life? Explain.
–That’s a good question. I honestly don’t know if I put God in a box but I know that I’m capable of doing this. So I asked my wife. She mentioned two things one is that (I have a neurological issues with hands and feet) I feel God will not heal that condition. Not a big deal, but that’s what she mentioned.
8. How was your thinking most challenged by the lesson? Explain.
–This lesson was a good overview of my life as a Christian. In the past I have admittedly put God in a box and now I need to be open and aware that I don’t do it again.